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spoonbard
Power Level: Guldo
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 168
Location: London
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 Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: Face of the other |
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http://www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html
This is a really interesting mini essay entitled 'face of the other', tackling the supposedly caucasian appearence of anime characters from the standpoint of a cultural anthropologist.
It makes some excellent points that I quite agree with... just thought I'd throw it into the air, since it might make for some good discussion ^_^
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Patachu
North Kai
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2051
Location: Dorkémon Academy
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Definitely one of my favorite writings on manga. Matt Thorn is a man among men 
"Why does Sailor Moon look white?"
"She doesn't look white. She looks like a cartoon character." |
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ixis
Power Level: Android 17/18
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: A chair in front of a computer.
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: |
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I also found this article intersting as well (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/shukan-st/articles/op20051125/op20051125main.htm)
As far as "substantial subject matter" goes, I wonder where OEL falls on that line? Of course Sorcerers and Secretaries, Dramacon, and Steady Beat all have what I would consider substantial themes, especially considering shoujo from the east (Ouran, Fruits Basket... Um... Inu... Yasha...)
I wonder, if many Japanese mangaka want to draw more shonen style comics, and Japanese female readers enjoy shonen slightly more then current shoujo... And female American readers can enjoy Naruto and Fruits Basket... And most male American readers aren't interested in shoujo or feel pressured against buying it...
How come TP stresses shoujo OEL? Of course if the story's good they'll run with it, but if shonen is being bought more than shoujo on a global scale why not just be on the lookout for everything?
Damnit guys, our comics suck  |
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minakichan
Power Level: Ginyu
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 502
Location: Massachusetts Institute of Torturology
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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(AAAH best article ever. If Sailor Moon is Caucasian for being blonde, Sailors Mercury, Neptune, Chibi-Moon etc are obviously some form of alien XD Oh wait, that's actually true isn't it...)
I response to Ixis:
30% of Japanese manga, I believe, is specifically shoujo. This does leave some other percentages for jyosei, yaoi, and more "unisex" stuff that appeals to girls more. There's also those shonen manga, that, ah, appeal to girls more. I'd guess that the more specifically "girl-appealing" manga isn't HUGELY less popular than shounen.
But if I'm not mistaken (I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere, in one of those "OMG girls can read comics!" articles), manga is more popular with girls in the US than with guys? Or very close? Also (again, gross generalizations) Tokyopop is... more shoujo-y than Viz; Viz has freaking Shounen Jump and those mangas that run on Cartoon Network, while Tokyopop's biggest hit is Fruits Basket and they've got the whole yaoi lines and all.
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Last edited by minakichan on Wed May 17, 2006 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Silencea
Power Level: Guldo
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 127
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Our comics do not suck. Do not be ridiculous.
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ixis
Power Level: Android 17/18
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: A chair in front of a computer.
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Silencea wrote: | | Our comics do not suck. Do not be ridiculous. |
I meant guys as in boys. It would have sounded weird if I said "Man boys, the comics we make suck "
And I was joking  You people are all too high strung.
and in response to minakichan, I wonder how many of those girl readers read shoujo and nothing but shoujo, and how many read both shonen and shoujo (and compare that to the number of boy readers who read shonen and shoujo to the number of boys who only read shonen.)
I can tell you that honestly I don't know the numbers, but I'd hazard a guess that most of those girl readers buy comics from both perspectives. Shonen, to me, seems more open to anyone and gender-neutral while shoujo is clear-cut "for girls, no icky boys allowed! >".
That said, there are male readers who enjoy shoujo manga as well (myself included) but I can tell you from my experience and of experiences shared from other boys reading shoujo is odd and borderline homosexual (I brought an issue of Ribbon into a SCAD foreign comics club and everyone was surprised that I actually bought shoujo, much less read actual untranslated shoujo.)
From this info I'm gonna guess that while there are more female manga readers/consumers in America, they're just as likely to buy shonen as well as shoujo (on average) than a male reader.
Also, while most people see Viz as shonen and TP as shoujo I really don't think the average manga reader defines the two companies as "for boys" and the other "for girls" (though the heads of those respective companies may try to market themselves as such.) I think the fact that Viz is seen as more shonen oriented because they were able to make Jump! a success over here. They've already started working on turning Shojo Beat into another successful magazine, if they succeed will we still see Viz as the shonen giant? |
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Rivkah
Power Level: Ginyu
Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Posts: 962
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ixis wrote: | | How come TP stresses shoujo OEL? |
Because shoujo rule and shounen drool!  |
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spoonbard
Power Level: Guldo
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 168
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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lol! I'm SO not taking sides on this XD
I <3 good comics. Whatever they be. And Tokyopop publish some damn good original material!
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ixis
Power Level: Android 17/18
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: A chair in front of a computer.
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rivkah wrote: | | ixis wrote: | | How come TP stresses shoujo OEL? |
Because shoujo rule and shounen drool! |
Come on guys!! We gotta fight back!
Someone call Felipe Smith, Nathan Maurer and Kevin Ross and meet me down in Mexico with a case of beer and a map to Castro's hidden potato cache... We'll win this war yet. |
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Bewildered
Grand Kai
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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I dunno, I'd think the most likely reason for the shoujo emphasis has more to do with their actual sales numbers (which we would not have access to). They know who are buying their books and what sells, and have decided that shoujo has more potential to be rewarding.
It may also have to do with the fact that the wider genre of "shounen" also encompasses the American comics, not necessarily influenced by manga, that are produced for the primarily-male American comics audience. Most (not all, of course) indy comics & mainstream comics produced in the US could be classified as "shounen" even if not "OEL." So there's already a wide selection of "boys comics" available.
The explosion in manga sales in recent years has been directly related to its appeal to a female audience. For that matter, the larger audience for anime and manga has been shifting to female. Why not tap into that growth?
That being said, it's not like they're NOT publishing shounen OEL. They're doing several. The only thing I've heard that they are actively avoiding right now is high fantasy.
Bridget
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spoonbard
Power Level: Guldo
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 168
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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yet they're doing warcraft anyway... XD
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Patachu
North Kai
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2051
Location: Dorkémon Academy
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ixis wrote: | | Also, while most people see Viz as shonen and TP as shoujo I really don't think the average manga reader defines the two companies as "for boys" and the other "for girls" (though the heads of those respective companies may try to market themselves as such.) |
Who are these "most people"?
This has got to be the dumbest cack I have ever heard. Heck, TP's Japan licenses right now are actually leaning towards mature male-oriented series (Beck, BLAME!, Dragon Head, Smuggler, Dead End) cuz Viz took all the teen-targeted stuff. ALL the teen-targeted stuff, for both boys and girls -- grab a list of what Viz manga is coming out for a given month and you'll probably see just as much girl stuff as guy stuff because of the sheer volume of their output.
If Viz and TP are viewed as "the shonen company" and "the shoujo company," it's only because their most popular titles fit those categories (Naruto v. Fruits Basket) -- but if you stopped staring intensely at the Bookscan Top 10 for a moment and look at the bigger picture, they both cater equally to either gender.
Anyhow, the male/female divide among North American manga readers is a lot less sharp than in Japan.
In Japan, a female can read stuff out of Shonen Jump, but a male who reads something out of, like, Betsucomi is some kind of weirdo. A gay male who admits to reading yaoi is utterly unspeakable, because yaoi is a woman thing.
In America, you'll see girls who comfortably read shounen, guys who comfortably read shoujo, and gay males who admit to reading yaoi.
I think this is because the manga magazines in Japan are very clear-cut about their target audience. Yeah, you know, copies of Ribon really are pretty damn scary with all their sparklies and gigantic eyes and plastic jewelry giveaways. And, like, Shonen Sunday usually has a bikini idol on the cover, cuz it's a MANLY MAN MANGA MAGAZINE. But you don't see that with American releases. TP's edition of Marmalade Boy (which ran in Ribon) looks pretty ordinary sitting on a bookshelf with those pleasant orange-yellow spines. Viz's Midori Days (a Shonen Sunday title) looks almost girly with the pastel-colored covers.
When Japan's manga readers consider a title, one thing that they think about almost subconsciously is "Is it a BOY, GIRL, MAN or WOMAN comic?"
North Americans, not having been brought up with the culture of manga magazines, probably think more along the lines of "Is it a COMEDY, DRAMA, or ACTION comic?"
I, for one, care a lot more about what's in a manga than who reads it (or is supposed to be reading it). |
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Silencea
Power Level: Guldo
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 127
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ixis wrote: | | Silencea wrote: | | Our comics do not suck. Do not be ridiculous. |
I meant guys as in boys. It would have sounded weird if I said "Man boys, the comics we make suck "
And I was joking You people are all too high strung. |
I apologize, Ixis. I had just woken up when I read that and somehow understood you to mean, "Man, OEL creations suck." Not sure if I agree or disagree with the interpretation I have of your comments now, though.
For my part, I read both "boys" and "girls" comics equally, particularly if we're throwing in American superhero comics into the boy/girl divide. I'm more picky about the genre, as Patachu pointed out. (When it comes down to it, though, I'm most picky about the plot, supported by art style and reviews from friends.)
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Clockwork Clown
Power Level: Zarbon
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Oxford UK
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Rivkah wrote: | | Because shoujo rule and shounen drool! |
I'd have that on a bumper sticker. (If I had a bumper to stick a sticker on).
I think I remember hearing that a couple of years ago shoujo-type ideas were the ones TP were interested in with regards to OEL. (I could be wrong). But recently there's been a huge range of different stuff 
On the subject of girls ... fangirls are a (sort of) untapped source. I clearly remember going into a comic book store and there was a group of fairly young girls pretty much listing what they had and didn't have off the shelves. "Do you have Inu Yasha #129812 yet?" "Do you have that volume of FAKE?" ... etc., and bought the stuff they didn't have and walked out with armfuls of books. Girls + interest = yay for anyone on the selling end of anything. Kinda.
And excitable girls at a convention are a force to be reckoned with. In my experience, it's girls that have been the seriously strong fans, and that's been with manga. Right where I am, it's almost considered "cuter" for girls to be hardcore fans of something (especially anything that's vaguely kitsch), and guys are still viewed as being a tad on the wrong side of geeky if they splode about anything in the style of a fangirl spotting a Tamahome cosplayer.
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ixis
Power Level: Android 17/18
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: A chair in front of a computer.
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Patachu wrote: | | ixis wrote: | | Also, while most people see Viz as shonen and TP as shoujo I really don't think the average manga reader defines the two companies as "for boys" and the other "for girls" (though the heads of those respective companies may try to market themselves as such.) |
Who are these "most people"?
This has got to be the dumbest cack I have ever heard. Heck, TP's Japan licenses right now are actually leaning towards mature male-oriented series (Beck, BLAME!, Dragon Head, Smuggler, Dead End) cuz Viz took all the teen-targeted stuff. ALL the teen-targeted stuff, for both boys and girls -- grab a list of what Viz manga is coming out for a given month and you'll probably see just as much girl stuff as guy stuff because of the sheer volume of their output.
If Viz and TP are viewed as "the shonen company" and "the shoujo company," it's only because their most popular titles fit those categories (Naruto v. Fruits Basket) -- but if you stopped staring intensely at the Bookscan Top 10 for a moment and look at the bigger picture, they both cater equally to either gender.
Anyhow, the male/female divide among North American manga readers is a lot less sharp than in Japan.
In Japan, a female can read stuff out of Shonen Jump, but a male who reads something out of, like, Betsucomi is some kind of weirdo. A gay male who admits to reading yaoi is utterly unspeakable, because yaoi is a woman thing.
In America, you'll see girls who comfortably read shounen, guys who comfortably read shoujo, and gay males who admit to reading yaoi.
I think this is because the manga magazines in Japan are very clear-cut about their target audience. Yeah, you know, copies of Ribon really are pretty damn scary with all their sparklies and gigantic eyes and plastic jewelry giveaways. And, like, Shonen Sunday usually has a bikini idol on the cover, cuz it's a MANLY MAN MANGA MAGAZINE. But you don't see that with American releases. TP's edition of Marmalade Boy (which ran in Ribon) looks pretty ordinary sitting on a bookshelf with those pleasant orange-yellow spines. Viz's Midori Days (a Shonen Sunday title) looks almost girly with the pastel-colored covers.
When Japan's manga readers consider a title, one thing that they think about almost subconsciously is "Is it a BOY, GIRL, MAN or WOMAN comic?"
North Americans, not having been brought up with the culture of manga magazines, probably think more along the lines of "Is it a COMEDY, DRAMA, or ACTION comic?"
I, for one, care a lot more about what's in a manga than who reads it (or is supposed to be reading it). |
Well, I care a lot about who's reading what manga because I draw it with the intent of selling it to the people who read it. :/
When I said "most people" I meant the people on these boards. Usually when discussing anything about writing a story for TP editors and other OEL artists state that while they're looking for anything good, any series that targets a female audience or is in a school setting is preferred. And it's not only TP, but other entertainment companies are shooting for the growing female market (look at Totally Spies, Jenny the Girl robot and the like.) It's a hot market.
In response to your first paragraph you're basically proving my point. Viz is targeting manga all over the place. It's been a common held fact for a few people that Viz=shonen blah blah blah, I never said I believed that.
Other than that I don't get the point you're trying to prove or how it's really important to this discussion, could you explain? |
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