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Patachu
North Kai
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2051
Location: Dorkémon Academy
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devilwithcape
Power Level: Ginyu
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Even if the information in that article is true then that person is still missing a HUGE concept. Which is:
If you don't like what you are being offered then don't sign.
You can always self- publish and get 100% royalties and not have to worry about deadlines.
TOKYOPOP is a company. The bottom line is to make money, not cater to creator's needs. They have a formula, and they follow it. It's how they have stayed in business thus far.
If you feel you're getting a shady deal from them then find another publisher. TP is not doing anything that Marvel or DC hasn't done for over 30 years. It's how the business works.
As a matter of fact, comparing it to some other creator contract's I've seen this one is not that bad.
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And in my illness, Woman is the source of my being, my God. Lust deceives me into believing that is what I cannot live without, when it is really God I cannot live without. |
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Pseudome
Supreme Kai
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: Another dimension...BLEAH!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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*scratches head* I know I came across this a while back. But for the life of me, I can't figure out if I followed a link from here or not.
Well, at any rate, it's really a moot point. Tokyopop is a business and it's trying to get the best deal that it can. We as artists are obligated to do the same for ourselves.
If one is willing to take the time, and able to spend a little money on legal counsel, then the end result should be a contract that is acceptable to both parties.
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Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much... - Teddy Roosevelt |
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devilwithcape
Power Level: Ginyu
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Pseudome wrote: |
If one is willing to take the time, and able to spend a little money on legal counsel, then the end result should be a contract that is acceptable to both parties. |
Couldn't agree more.
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And in my illness, Woman is the source of my being, my God. Lust deceives me into believing that is what I cannot live without, when it is really God I cannot live without. |
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illusive_shamisen
Power Level: Nappa
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Pseudome wrote: | *scratches head
Well, at any rate, it's really a moot point. Tokyopop is a business and it's trying to get the best deal that it can. We as artists are obligated to do the same for ourselves. |
Yes, but as I understand it, it looks like the artists are the ones who usually get the short end of the stick.
Tokyopop is taking advantage of naive new artists by offering contracts that allow Tokyopop to do whatever they feel like to the artists characters and story (something that the artist may not have even been aware of when signing the contract, or was to "starry eyed" to care about and signed anyway) and you're OKAY with that?
Mark my words, this kind of behavior will affect ALL of us as creative artists. Regardless of wether we all think these artists deserved what they got because they were ignorant or didn't care, these kind of contracts be-little the advances that we artists have tried to obtain for ourselves in the past.
If these kind of contracts begin catching on as the "standard" that will be offered to artists, then bargaining for anything higher than this "standard" becomes increasingly more difficult.
Unless you are just all out desperate (or simply don't care about your creations, which I can hardly imagine) then NEVER sign a contract that doesn't give you a "say" in what happens to your creations! *unless you are in a "work for hire" contract of course, since forfeiture of such rights is the whole point.
| Pseudome wrote: | | If one is willing to take the time, and able to spend a little money on legal counsel, then the end result should be a contract that is acceptable to both parties. |
This is an ideal situation, but unfortunately I'd be willing to wager 95% of us new artists will not fall into this category. New artists are prone to lower wages (this is acceptable) but, like I said before, if the forfeiture of "say" in what happens to your creations becomes standard (a wrong that artists have fought for decades) , it may eventually require a lawyer to get a better deal than that, which is in my eyes totally unacceptable.
| devilwithcape wrote: | | If you feel you're getting a shady deal from them then find another publisher. TP is not doing anything that Marvel or DC hasn't done for over 30 years. It's how the business works. |
"Go to another publisher" you say? If the other publishers see that Tokyopop can get away with it, what will keep them from doing this as well? And your OKAY with this? Don't take this wrong (I'm only trying to prove a point) but you are like the guy in the sinking boat who says "we're gonna die anyway, so why bother?" instead of helping to bail the water out. What Marvel and DC has done is BS, and should not be seen as anything else. The day we accept it as anything otherwise is the day they (and the rest of the industry) will be walking all over us.
Self publishing will be the only other option, and not all of us are willing to go this route. It involves alot more work than just creating art, and artists should'nt be forced to take this path just to hold their right to the direction of their creations.
This is a VERY serious subject. More than one famous artist has been burnt and more than one famous franchise ruined (well, maybe not totally ruined) because the publisher all of a sudden decided they didn't like what the artist was doing and messed around with the creators art.
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"Your sight is your weakness...."
-Utsutsu Mujuru, Ninja Scroll
Last edited by illusive_shamisen on Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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RisingZan
Power Level: Burter
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 288
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| devilwithcape wrote: | | Pseudome wrote: |
If one is willing to take the time, and able to spend a little money on legal counsel, then the end result should be a contract that is acceptable to both parties. |
Couldn't agree more. |
I second this.
However, the posting by these folks comes off as a little more than bitter (at least to me). Perhaps they are jaded, overworked, comic "pros" -but they could also just be aspiring artists all too quick to splash the Hatorade on a company that is giving industry opportunities to "noobs". Such is the anonymity of forums I suppose.
Oh, and please correct me if I wrong, but since when is a totally "green", unpublished new talent supposed to start off pulling the wages that a seasoned vet demands? I only ask because some of the posters in that linked thread seem to make it sound as though it's otherwise. I dunno, maybe I misread something...
As for retaining creative control or "say" I think that's ultimately even more important than pay. Although I really can't pass judgment on exactly what TP does, or other companies for that matter, unless I were to see a contract with my own eyes.
I'm not saying what these people claim is being done isn't bad, but I am saying I'm skeptic of anything that gets posted on the internet as the golden ambrosia of truth -be it good or bad. |
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Pseudome
Supreme Kai
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: Another dimension...BLEAH!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Tokyopop is taking advantage of naive new artists by offering contracts that allow Tokyopop to do whatever they feel like to the artists characters and story (something that the artist may not have even been aware of when signing the contract, or was to "starry eyed" to care about and signed anyway) and you're OKAY with that?
Mark my words, this kind of behavior will affect ALL of us as creative artists. Regardless of wether we all think these artists deserved what they got because they were ignorant or didn't care, these kind of contracts be-little the advances that we artists have tried to obtain for ourselves in the past. |
I look at it from the perspective of a year ago. A year ago, this sort of opportunity simply didn't exist from any of the players in the American manga industry. Now it does.
If a company really wants your work, they'll negotiate. Granted, the tough part as an artist is figuring out whether or not a given company wants your work. But then again, if they're offering you a contract, chances are that you have a little more bargaining power than you thought.
In any event, just about all of my experiences with Tokyopop have left me with a warm and fuzzy feeling. They seem particularly intent on making sure all of our needs are addressed, and we're satisfied with the end product that they're putting out. This is simply the hallmark of a company that knows the value of keeping its artists happy.
I would be wary of basing judgments by how loudly a few disenfranchised artists are yelling. That's not to say they don't have a point, and they shouldn't be listened to. Quite the contrary. But I do not believe this thread spells the doom of all fledgling American manga-ka, and will be the start of a reign of terror on the part of all companies creating original manga. 
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Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much... - Teddy Roosevelt |
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jal
Power Level: Nappa
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| haha. ahhh man. if those claims are true then lets hope for a change. because i refuse to be a starving artist. |
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RisingZan
Power Level: Burter
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 288
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Pseudome wrote: |
I would be wary of basing judgments by how loudly a few disenfranchised artists are yelling. That's not to say they don't have a point, and they shouldn't be listened to. Quite the contrary. But I do not believe this thread spells the doom of all fledgling American manga-ka, and will be the start of a reign of terror on the part of all companies creating original manga. |
Where's my applauding smiley face at? |
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Rivkah
Power Level: Ginyu
Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Posts: 962
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| RisingZan wrote: | | Oh, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but since when is a totally "green", unpublished new talent supposed to start off pulling the wages that a seasoned vet demands? |
I couldn't agree with this more. While an artist may be able to prove that they can draw well, they can't prove that they can stick to a schedule until they've done it. It's the most telling point of who stays 'green' and who makes it.
And I have to admit, finding your workflow and sticking to schedule is the most difficult part. I don't think Tokyopop doubts any of its artists' talents, but they can't exactly afford to pay a huge advance to great artists who never finish their book. It's taken me 4 months to finally find what works for me, and I imagine my next books will come out much faster than this first one . . . but most artists are notorious for missing deadlines. A company can't expect all it's new artists to work at the pace they desire. In fact, they probably EXPECT the opposite! *lol*
I don't have a problem with my contract. Of course, I didn't just sign it without attempting for the provisions I wanted: some you get, some you don't. Hopefully, when I've proven myself, then I'll have more negotiation leeway. As is, I'm unproven and therefore more of a risk and potential liability than any proven source of gain. Therefore, only expect so much. I have yet to see a new writer in the book industry offered everything that they hoped for in a contract. I wouldn't expect any different from Tokyopop. When you've finally become an asset, rather than a risk, THEN you can start to expect more.
And as everybody else as said, you don't have to sign. If you're really DA BOMB, then some OMG publisher is going to recognize your incredible talent and skill someday, right? Right?
Just don't expect it.
On a side note: the only thing I can say would make me outright refuse a contract would be a "right to first refusal" clause. They come in many shapes, forms, and sizes, and are often difficult to spot. But basically, they tie you hip and thigh to the same publisher at the same contract for as long as they shall desire. I'm not saying that they'll necessarily abuse that right, but it isn't worth the risk if you plan on ever advancing the provisions of your contract. Another thing to look out for is copyright. NEVER give your full copyright away. IMHO, people who've done this in the comic industry pretty much deserved it for their stupidity. And you won't be able to win those rights back for at least 40 more years. A shared copyright isn't terrible (and often shows a publisher's willingness to promote your book), but giving it ALL away is you just asking for abuse. |
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lulachan
East Kai
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| illusive_shamisen wrote: | | Pseudome wrote: | *scratches head
Well, at any rate, it's really a moot point. Tokyopop is a business and it's trying to get the best deal that it can. We as artists are obligated to do the same for ourselves. |
Yes, but as I understand it, it looks like the artists are the ones who usually get the short end of the stick.
Tokyopop is taking advantage of naive new artists by offering contracts that allow Tokyopop to do whatever they feel like to the artists characters and story (something that the artist may not have even been aware of when signing the contract, or was to "starry eyed" to care about and signed anyway) and you're OKAY with that? |
your job as an artist is not just to create beautiful and wonderful things, but to care for them and protect them. it is your JOB to understand the business, to be prepared to negotiate, to get legal counsel. think of it like parenting-- most people feel as those their creations are their children. like any parent, you must be ready to protect your child. you must arm yourself with the information you need to make that possible. there are books and websites on creative rights that are great resources for artists, all they have to do is look. it is the job of the publisher to acquire new projects that earn the company money, not to be nice to you. this is business, and business isn't always nice.
| illusive_shamisen wrote: |
If these kind of contracts begin catching on as the "standard" that will be offered to artists, then bargaining for anything higher than this "standard" becomes increasingly more difficult. |
my understanding is that these sorts of contracts are, more or less, standard, and they have been for years. this is why there is such a thing as intellectual property law-- because this type of creative control question arises in many industries, whether it be an inventor working for lucent whose creation becomes a property of lucent by virtue of his emplyment there, or whether it's a manga-ka.
| Pseudome wrote: | | If one is willing to take the time, and able to spend a little money on legal counsel, then the end result should be a contract that is acceptable to both parties. |
| illusive_shamisen wrote: |
This is an ideal situation, but unfortunately I'd be willing to wager 95% of us new artists will not fall into this category. New artists are prone to lower wages (this is acceptable) but, like I said before, if the forfeiture of "say" in what happens to your creations becomes standard (a wrong that artists have fought for decades) , it may eventually require a lawyer to get a better deal than that, which is in my eyes totally unacceptable. |
there is no way you should enter into a contract, of any kind, without either having a lawyer look at it first, or being versed in your property rights. yeah, lawyers are expensive, but in most places there are opportunities for cheaper legal advice (maybe a law school nearby, or family friend-- hell you can't spit in this country without hitting a lawyer). otherwise, inform yourself. read. know your rights and be willing to ask for what's due you. and if you don't like it, walk. seriously. we live in a capitalist society and watching your own ass comes with the territory. it sounds like the people at TP aren't unreasonable, and are willing to negotiate-- don't fault them for doing their job, just make sure you do yours. |
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illusive_shamisen
Power Level: Nappa
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| lulachan wrote: | | your job as an artist is not just to create beautiful and wonderful things, but to care for them and protect them. it is your JOB to understand the business, to be prepared to negotiate, to get legal counsel. think of it like parenting-- most people feel as those their creations are their children. like any parent, you must be ready to protect your child. you must arm yourself with the information you need to make that possible. there are books and websites on creative rights that are great resources for artists, all they have to do is look. it is the job of the publisher to acquire new projects that earn the company money, not to be nice to you. this is business, and business isn't always nice. |
Exactly the point I was making. Unfortunately, new artists are often unaware of such legalities and end up in less than favorable contracts. This affects us because if publishers think they can get away with it, why would they offer anything better? There isn't exactly a lack of good artists out there, and if they all sign the first contract they see then why would publishers bargain with anyone that demands more? Such is the dilema.
| lulachan wrote: | | my understanding is that these sorts of contracts are, more or less, standard, and they have been for years. this is why there is such a thing as intellectual property law-- because this type of creative control question arises in many industries, whether it be an inventor working for lucent whose creation becomes a property of lucent by virtue of his emplyment there, or whether it's a manga-ka. |
The example you stated is a "work for hire" instance, where you are hired by the company as an artist or inventor, working for a standard salary. You would have basically forfeited everything you create and invent to your company, but in return get to say that you created it (and can probably display it), but otherwise have no other rights to it. This does not pertain to freelance artists like us. We bargain for our work and our privilages, and get extra money if our work is successful (commission, further contracts). This usually doesn't apply to the salary types.
| lulachan wrote: | | there is no way you should enter into a contract, of any kind, without either having a lawyer look at it first, or being versed in your property rights. yeah, lawyers are expensive, but in most places there are opportunities for cheaper legal advice (maybe a law school nearby, or family friend-- hell you can't spit in this country without hitting a lawyer). otherwise, inform yourself. read. know your rights and be willing to ask for what's due you. and if you don't like it, walk. seriously. we live in a capitalist society and watching your own ass comes with the territory. it sounds like the people at TP aren't unreasonable, and are willing to negotiate-- don't fault them for doing their job, just make sure you do yours. |
That is good advice and reflects my own opinion. BUT....this is apparently not what has been happening. People are signing contracts, unaware of their contents, and TP seems more than happy to give it to them. Quote from the article: "Tokyopop is just mining cheap labor...."
seems appropriate. Like I said, regardless of wether or not you think these artists are idiots for signing without knowing, they are creating a sub-"standard" that TP is adhering to, and this affects all of us. I more than anything want artists to know what they are getting into, and to not be star-struck or apathetic when signing up. I cannot fault TP for looking out for themselves, but the situation is alarming. This quote from the article sums up my feelings: "I've been glad to see Tokyopop giving opportunities to upcoming creators, but if they're using their position to take advantage, that curbs my enthusiasm quite a bit."
*edit - I am glad Pseudome spoke of their experiences with TP. It makes me feel a little less uneasy about them. If i heard more of it I might not be so wary.
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"Your sight is your weakness...."
-Utsutsu Mujuru, Ninja Scroll |
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pinkchan
Power Level: Ginyu
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 809
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
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If the beginning terms of the contract are true, I'm just a little worried TokyoPop even thinks of putting things like that in there, especially concerning copyright.
From a company that's supposed to be trying to help the little guy, isn't it a little...weird...that they even try to put shady stuff in the initial contract? I'm not looking for "oh you get a million bajillion dollars and 99% profit, no deadlines, full freedom of everything" etc, just...why do they even TRY to put in stuff that could mess with your ownership over your creative work?
The possible fact that they even consider trying to jeopardize your copyright is...just a little disturbing.
I think the most disturbing piece of information gleaned from those two articles is the incident with Naoko Taekeuchi and the unauthorized creation of fan novels of her work. I remember those novels, and it IS a little weird that currently nobody wants to translate the new revised versions of Sailor Moon into English. What exactly happened I don't know, but it's something to think about.
I've heard nothing but good things from a lot of the TokyoPop creators, so when I found that article a while ago it was a bit of a surprise.
This is a slightly unrelated personal note, but after reading that article and reading up more on the "manga" industry in general, I decided I should probably stop scrambling along with everyone else for the race for a TokyoPop deal. They're currently the only company who openly take unsolicited submissions, but it's a very specific format that may not work for the stories I want to draw. All of this was kind of a slap in the face that made me stop thinking "OMG MUST REVISE ALL MY STORIES TO FIT INTO THREE 150 PAGE BOOKS AJFJDFKJ MUST GET PUBLISHED BY TOKYOPOP!!11" and take this whole comic artist thing a little more leisurely. |
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devilwithcape
Power Level: Ginyu
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| pinkchan wrote: | If the beginning terms of the contract are true, I'm just a little worried TokyoPop even thinks of putting things like that in there, especially concerning copyright.
From a company that's supposed to be trying to help the little guy, isn't it a little...weird...that they even try to put shady stuff in the initial contract? I'm not looking for "oh you get a million bajillion dollars and 99% profit, no deadlines, full freedom of everything" etc, just...why do they even TRY to put in stuff that could mess with your ownership over your creative work?
The possible fact that they even consider trying to jeopardize your copyright is...just a little disturbing.
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It's the price you pay for using someone else's toys.
No one holds a gun to your head to sign the contract.
_________________
And in my illness, Woman is the source of my being, my God. Lust deceives me into believing that is what I cannot live without, when it is really God I cannot live without. |
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Tentopet
Power Level: King Cold
Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 1538
Location: Denver, Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| pinkchan wrote: | | This is a slightly unrelated personal note, but after reading that article and reading up more on the "manga" industry in general, I decided I should probably stop scrambling along with everyone else for the race for a TokyoPop deal. They're currently the only company who openly take unsolicited submissions, but it's a very specific format that may not work for the stories I want to draw. All of this was kind of a slap in the face that made me stop thinking "OMG MUST REVISE ALL MY STORIES TO FIT INTO THREE 150 PAGE BOOKS AJFJDFKJ MUST GET PUBLISHED BY TOKYOPOP!!11" and take this whole comic artist thing a little more leisurely. |
Just means less competition for me, hardyharhar!!!!
Sorry, I just can't take this conversation seriously since I've debated it too much already. I side with devilwithcape and the likes.
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